This thread is officially closed!

I do not have children, but I have often wondered why we often treat children as if they are idiots who can not handle the truth. Would it really be so terrible to tell them about European treatment of Native peoples? What are we concerned about? I am not sure how lying to them is so much better.

It goes back to who’s history? Which children are we telling which version of history?

Maybe teaching children early on about other histories will help them embrace others (and other perspectives) and not view whites as the ‘norm’ or superior or other harmful (to everyone) labels.

We know this is historically inaccurate, yet we dissimulate to children and tell them it’s true.

Native kids are told by their communities what the truth is, and seeing the white lies about it is very hurtful to indian children. While for the white kids it might be a nice fairytale about sharing and getting along, for indian kids it is a lesson in how whites whitewash their history and erase their stories.

I can’t imagine a scenario were we continue teaching the debunked white-centric version and are still able to respect the history and equality of indians. What would that look like?

Question: I agree that history should reflect the truth of the past, particularly as it is taught to adults. However, thinking about the way Thanksgiving is taught to children; except that it’s not factuallly corrrect, is it really so bad? It’s not like we’re glorifiying the slaughter of Natives, we are whitewashing over the Horror of those times and creating a nice parable about sharing and togetherness.
As far as I remember Thanksgiving was taught to me as a time to celebrate the friendship between ‘Indians’ and Pilgrims, with an emphasis on the ways the Natives shared with the Pilgrims to help them survive. It may not have been true in the big picture, but as a small child it put an image of reverence for Native Americans in my head, and spoke a basic message about sharing and giving.
For a six year old this may be a more productive message than one about how our great-great…grandfathers were mass murdering, racist, greedy, godawful human beings.
Sometimes kids need to learn what should be before thay learn what really is…

PS – I’m not giving a full-throated defense of the status quo, it’s just a thought..

If I understand you correctly, you recognize inequalities of the past, but see no point in focusing on them. You also see no point in addressing the advantages of having white skin in current society, out of a combination of A – Fear of reprisals against whites for sins of the past and B – a denial that white skin has anything do with your social position, or anyone’s.

Someone above brought up Appalachia as an example of how privilege is not related to skin-color. You are aware that despite the poverty, racism is rampant in that part of the country, which actually provides magnificent proof that white prvilege in in full-effect! Those may be very poor whites, but they still think of themselves as superior to black people! If u think it’s tough being a poor white in WV, try being a poor black in the same area.

Ever hear someone refer to a black person as ‘white on the inside’ – typically better-educated and employed black people? It’s a wonderful encapsulation of the fact that when we think of these abstract positive qualities..
“Good health
a strong and stable marriage
2 grown and successful children
2 jobs-both state jobs
2 graduate degrees
house basically paid for
200+ books
Christian faith
2 cars
good neighbors-mixed race neighborhood
lousy 401K-oh well
medical care”

..These are qualities that we think of as inherently white! White privilege surrounds you to an extent that you can’t even see it.

I am white, and I am aware that I have benefitted from it through my whole life.
Is white privilege directly responsible for who I am and how I live – No.

However,
-would that cop have let me go when I was 21 if I had been a drunk black kid?
-would the University I ended up at have acquiesced to the same transfer credit requests?
-would I have been hired from a temp to full-timer at my first corp job?

MAYBE, I am pretty awesome. But it’s important to be humble, and aware that the color of your skin, by Default, eases doors and options that are more difficult for others. Not necessarily from a legal/structural standpoint, but in one-on-one human interactions being white is a huge advantage.

I don’t know how to fix the problem, but I’m damn well determined to not further it. And if I had kids, I would want them taught the complex fullness of the truth of our history so they could understand and help change course as well. I agree that our ancestors needn’t be painted as monsters, but they needn’t be Lionized as heroes and martyrs either.

Anyways…

“Why, because it’s the truth. Focusing on who has more and how angry it makes one, does little but cause anger, depression and crime. That’s why this concept of “white privilege” does little to solve the ills of society. Rather than working together this philosophy provides an endless supply of blame.”

You’ve said things to this effect several times… that discussing and acknowledging and working to end white privilege would lead to crime and violence. Either you are making this up, or you have seen research that I have not seen. If you have seen this research, please provide a link so that we can all be better informed. Otherwise, please stop making this claim.

White people acknowledging white privilege is the first and most necessary step before whites and POC can work together. Without that acknowledgment of the rather obvious, and the commitment to work to end it, POC have no reason to trust that white people are sincere when they claim to want to work to end racism. They can reasonably conclude that such white people have no true intention to effect social change, and instead just want to polish their non-racist credentials while continuing to enjoy the effects of racism.

“That’s because all of us have to take some responsibility of what we do with our lives. It matters not if your white or not. Do I have a good marriage or two jobs because I’m white? of course not…to think otherwise is truly racist.”

Anti-racists see this claim a lot: that by suggesting whites have privilege, somehow it’s the anti-racists who are racist. Because we see this tactic often, it has lost any efficacy it may once have had.

No one, no one on this blog and no anti-racist, has ever suggested that POC shouldn’t take responsibility for their lives and their choices. To insinuate that I have suggested that is to deliberately misinterpret everything I have said in this discussion up to this point.

We are talking about white people’s responsibilities on this post. Why are white people so concerned with whether POC take responsibility for their choices or not? That isn’t white people’s business. What is our business is to make sure our own house is in order. While vociferously arguing that white people shouldn’t take responsibility for our actions regarding white privilege (because crime and violence will erupt!), suddenly you show concern with telling POC how to get their houses in order. No. That does not fly.

That’s because all of us have to take some responsibility of what we do with our lives. It matters not if your white or not. Do I have a good marriage or two jobs because I’m white? of course not…to think otherwise is truly racist. One of my former privileged white friends has ruined his marriage because of his behaviors.

I am concerned that you keep trying to distance yourself from unearned privilege. Why defensively bring up that others have much more than you? What did you want to accomplish with that point?
Why, because it’s the truth. Focusing on who has more and how angry it makes one, does little but cause anger, depression and crime. That’s why this concept of “white privilege” does little to solve the ills of society. Rather than working together this philosophy provides an endless supply of blame.

You say that you would bring up things like how individuals present themselves and the kinds of people with whom they associate. What if they can not afford nice clothes, various toiletries, and so forth? What if they were never taught how to interact in professional settings? What if the only people are them are a negative influence, but they can not afford to work or live in a different location?……………..All very important nor do I “wag fingers’ at anyone for not having the above. I’m afraid that year after year many people are being left behind because they don’t have the above skills. Since I have worked with developmentaly disabled children, mentally disturbed people and others stressing individual responsibility has worked pretty well.

Merry Christmas to you and to all!!!

I am concerned that you keep trying to distance yourself from unearned privilege. Why defensively bring up that others have much more than you? What did you want to accomplish with that point?

Those things you mentioned are all unearned privileges. Just like you said, they are parts of people’s lives, but people who do not have them do not get to shrug it off like that.

You say that you would bring up things like how individuals present themselves and the kinds of people with whom they associate. What if they can not afford nice clothes, various toiletries, and so forth? What if they were never taught how to interact in professional settings? What if the only people are them are a negative influence, but they can not afford to work or live in a different location? Yes, of course people make choices and of course they do not always make the socially approved of choices. However, the social structures in place also greatly affect what choices are available to them. I am not sure how simply shaking your finger at someone over a bad choice they made benefits anyone. People do need to take responsibility, but blaming someone who has not had the same opportunities is not a great solution.

Thank you for explaining the two names you were using. I was tempted to misconstrue that.

“Thus, I’m open to the concept of “privilege” but don’t see it as a valid way of solving the social ills of this country. Perhaps you can explain how this idea would/should work.”

Gladly. Healing racial discrimination against POC is not something that POC can do. The discrimination comes from whites, and therefore the solution must be carried out by whites. By examining how white supremacy is institutionalized and accrues whites unearned benefits, white people can find ways to dismantle these structures so that we can actually reach a meritocracy- where no one’s membership in a racial group automatically gives them a head start or disadvantage. But whites are the ones that must do this, it is incumbent upon us.

Not intending to be privileged here but I use a computer at work and at home to post on this site-sorry for the confusion!!!!

To get into the spirit of it all I will list somethings which some view as unearned privilege and others view as just part of their lives. In a philosophical sense they are both advantages/privileges but they cannot be simply explained away as being unearned:

Good health
a strong and stable marriage
2 grown and successful children
2 jobs-both state jobs
2 graduate degrees
house basically paid for
200+ books
Christian faith
2 cars
good neighbors-mixed race neighborhood
lousy 401K-oh well
medical care

There are others and I’m well aware, due to the work I do, that other people do not have the same advantages that I do. Of course there are many people who have much, much more than I have.
However, since I work with many minority cliients, if they were to tell me that I received these things because i’m white, this would be a starting point for me to discuss those things that have happened in their lives. Though I may agree with them that racial/racism has impacted them I tend to focus on their choices as well-thus I ask: “are you drinking alcohol or using illegal drugs, what kind of people do you associate with, how do you present yourself to others etc, etc. Most people respond positively to this approach because it opens up lines of communication and gives control to them rather than some mirage of white privilege.